This is what tipped me over the edge completely. I’d never raised an issue on Facebook before. I raised this in the hope of generating compassionate dialogue. I have no regrets, however, for finally speaking my truth. It hurt me a lot because this issue is personal.
Sharing this dialogue is difficult. The article I refer to was published on 27 September 2010, on the St. Athanasios blog*, of the Greek Orthodox chapel at Rookwood cemetery, where my dad is buried. The article was titled: Memorial Services in the Greek Orthodox Church.
I quote what the anonymous author wrote:
“Our prayers can help those who repented even shortly before their death; not those who committed suicide (or euthanasia) or those, who of their own free will, rejected the love of God and ignored His Justice to the end of their life. However, as we do not know what is going on in one’s mind, while living or dying, we must pray for souls of all departed. Therefore, our Church offers prayers for them at funerals and burials and over their graves, but especially the Church offers the Bloodless Sacrifice for the repose of the departed.”
Who wrote such a messed up, confusing, and cruel thing? Refer to my previous post regarding what each priest in this “merciful” Church, is saying. Each one is doing whatever they want, no matter how dangerously inaccurate, unconscionable, insensitive, inhumane and merciless it is, regarding this issue! How could I continue to remain silent when my family and I have been harmed by this treatment from a church community, who knew all of us very well, including my own father!
After all the suffering I experienced, I couldn’t be silent anymore.
This article had also been published on the official Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia website. That was even more disturbing, because it demonstrated the “official” Greek Orthodox Church position on this issue, regarding the attitude and treatment of the suffering flock, by the church.
I raised this issue in July 2017 as a Facebook post. The comments were as messy and confusing as the message communicated by each individual priest in his own way. I haven’t included the entire dialogue here. It’s too painful to revisit those comments. I include significant contributions, that demonstrate how influential these priests are, how persuasive their harmful message is, and how church goers, who cannot or will not question these messages from priests, parrot these messages in the same messed up and harmful way to others.
I really was naive and had no idea what I was in for, in addition to the intense emotional distress the article on memorial services had caused me. I do not include names, for privacy. This also isn’t about one individual. It’s about the stubborn mentality that exists in a culture and a church community that is destructive and harmful.
Where were all the priests to comment, regarding my post asking for compassion, education and understanding, on a topic that shouldn’t be a debate, but a human cause to unite for? Silent.
I posted:
Me: It’s time for me to break my silence and end the stigma and belief about suicide. Firstly, one does not “commit suicide” like you commit a crime. Mental illness is a reality for many, so secondly, those with this much emotional pain & suffering do not end their life due to free will. They feel so much pain, helplessness and hopelessness that there will be no end to this pain tormenting them. Thirdly, if our prayers don’t help those who were suffering so much in life, we are the ones rejecting them in death. I’m sorry people, it’s posts like these that feed the stigma and ignorance that exists around mental illness in this apathetic world. I’m one of many survivors who’ve lost a loved one to suicide and am very sad that the church has decided to remain in the dark ages. And yes, I’m hurt and angry.
A: Vicki the comment is regarding the actual canons of the orthodox church – on the other side of the coin if people don’t realise that committing suicide is a sin how can they realise not to take their own life? Vicki you shouldn’t be angry at the church. Every priest upon someone committing suicide will look at each individual case and if mental illness is part of the reason will act accordingly. We can’t blame the orthodox church if someone takes their own life. (Note: Where did I say that? But I blame people’s ignorance, apathy, judgement and lack of compassion – those in the church). Vicki we have not decided to remain in the dark ages. Perhaps instead of putting Orthodoxy down you should discuss this with your local priest or spiritual father. You are someone that I have seen at fellowships for many years so I see this post out of anger toward Christ’s holy church has hurt me deeply. (Note: So they made it all about themselves like so many at the time my dad died – how dare they, especially taking what I said totally out of context! I said nothing about Christ here). Making our holy church that Christ died for look bad and even in front of your FaceBook friends. I am very saddened by this. (Note: I was patronised, not to mention the usual martyr complex many have these days. And don’t mind how hurt and insulted I was with such articles).
J: .... I do think Church leaders need to put out more world-reaching statements. So sad that there are still groups today perpetuating harsh viewpoints. And Vicki, a belated condolence for your loss.
A: Yes I do agree with Vicki as I know her too, one of the most beautiful and inspiring people I have ever met....(Note: I also know this person isn’t deliberately malicious, but completely brainwashed with screwed up ideologies from priests. I opened a can of worms without knowing how much so. I’m not the only one who’s been affected in that community. It only took one voice to give others the courage they needed to raise their experiences. I realised how afraid and silenced people had been for so long. I wish they’d stayed on the topic though. My intention wasn’t to create a platform for complaining but to have a dialogue to encourage change and work toward a more compassionate Church).
Me (still polite and trying to reason): A., my anger isn’t toward the Church. But if a public post goes on a church blog, it then represents the stance of the Church. It is difficult for those not in shoes like mine to understand. There are many who’ll see this article and not ask questions. I need to ensure people understand the reality and truth about something plaguing many people in society. It is not a personal attack on anyone. But I’m now not only fighting for a church community to stop sweeping these difficult issues under the rug, but to stop these posts of some individuals who continue making the vulnerable and their families feel like they’re rejected by God or the church too. Perhaps if more people showed empathy, compassion and love in this world, the suicide rate would decrease. I believe it would.
K: Vicki, you are always braver than you think. It’s by opening these conversations that we will educate each other by sharing real life experiences and putting ourselves in someone else’s shoes to build tolerance and understanding and slowly disperse these and other myths.
Me: Thanks K. And that includes your support in the difficult times I faced. You’ve witnessed what I haven’t spoken about publicly. It’s easy for some to make comments without knowing one’s suffering surrounding this tragedy. A coward punch is also when one knocks you down at your most weak and vulnerable time. It’s easy at such a time, in an emotional way. The night of this tragic event, the coward punch came first from a priest. I’ve been silent in my grief for too long. People should only be ordained if they have a Theology degree, and the curriculum needs to be updated to reflect pastoral theology and contemporary issues, and not rely only on canons written many centuries ago when mental illness wasn’t known as a medical condition.
A: Vicki I am sorry to read what you wrote but don’t you know that making these statements publicly you are actually turning people away from the Orthodox church. Wouldn’t it be best to go to the Archbishop directly with your concerns? In terms of you suffering in silence too long why not address these issues with someone higher up in the Orthodox platform. You’re a smart girl (Note: oooh patronising and ignorant – you think we haven’t tried?) and I know what you’re saying but speaking badly on a priest’s sin today on FB and posting a link to an Orthodox page isn’t the right way to go about it. Sorry just don’t think you are going about it the right way sweetie as you are turning people away from Orthodoxy.
Me (I’m still trying to reason): A. we have tried to go to the Archbishop and are still trying. It’s people’s decision if they turn away from the church. Am I to continue to sweep what I experienced under the rug? Don’t blame me for the actions of priests in the church. If I don’t raise this and discuss people WILL leave the church regardless. If the authorities try to address these issues I may actually save people from leaving the church as you accuse me of doing. And did I mention the priest’s name? No. Have you had a serious issue like this you tried for 7 years to address privately? Please stop. I’m really tired of this apathetic attitude.
A.: Vicki I just want to apologise I never meant to upset you. I can see your point of view and I hope you can forgive me. I can see now you are just trying to help – please accept my sincere apologies – I ask for your forgiveness.
Me: A., I’m willing to forgive. The article was already a public post, I just shared and started a conversation to inform and educate people of the stigma and misinformation out there. It was never personal and you displayed the example we experienced. I’m not pushing people away from the church. Christ stood up for what he believed in too and broke ridiculous rules. He too was persecuted for voicing what people didn’t want to hear. This is no different. It would be easy to continue to lay low, be silent in my grief, but, like I said I follow Christ’s example directly. I’d rather not go to a spiritual father and I bypass the priests entirely. That’s my God given free will. Thanks everyone for sharing your views. There’s a lot that finally needs to be addressed.
(Note: I tried to wrap it up, but if someone replied, A. would continue. The discussion went to same sex marriage, other things etc. off topic completely and went on and on. I raised this issue objectively. But you reach a point where you’ve had a gutful).
JK: Hi Vicki my dear. Firstly I just want to say that I am incredibly proud of you... You know I am not a religious person so it is easy for me to look at most of the comments to your post with much criticism & disappointment... Mostly because I feel the actual issue you are talking about is being missed... But I am a respectful person & respect others beliefs & choices... However, as a mental health educator I do understand the importance of a better understanding & commitment to mental health education.... For those that have not walked in the shoes of extreme depression & anxiety they have no right to judge... But as a community, and especially a religious community, there should be an expectation of understanding, support and respect for every individual’s challenges as a human being, even when one has not experienced another’s suffering. At the end of the day, religious or not, we humans are very complicated and generally naïve breed, lacking any real ability to face all the realities of life in their true and unmasked light. It’s a much more difficult life for those who struggle for truth & change & honesty (Like Jesus dare I say)...Facing all real fears & worldly experiences head on...But I bet it is so much more rewarding.. So getting back to my first point. I’m proud of you Vicki. You keep living the difficult life & fighting for these important messages. I have your back always. Love you. Xxx
Me: Thanks JK. You were at my father’s funeral and also witnessed unjust occurrences toward my family. As a mental health educator, you have a significant and challenging role in society. You cannot do it alone. Religious or not, wherever people go to seek comfort and strength, they should be able to receive this. Sharing personal stories, like ours, may help bring about some change and improvements. Some people felt I shouldn’t have expressed my views publicly, but how will we educate, learn and grow in love and understanding if I don’t? There are serious issues out there, like depression, anxiety and despair, and when someone is suffering or, if the worst occurs (suicide) and their family turn for help to their Christian church and its community & representatives, and are either ignored, judged, condemned or rejected, they’re man made rules they are hiding behind. Not very authentically spiritual. Case by case decisions based on a priest’s judgement call doesn’t sit well with me. There are cruel, apathetic ones out there who also don’t have any qualifications whatsoever to even think critically about ethical and moral issues today. Comments are subjective and some ordained priests from the 70s and 80s had their own motive for ordination and I can tell you, it wasn’t a spiritual calling. Case by case decisions give too much power to clergy who, many of us have witnessed, have abused such “privileges”. There are some excellent, beautiful clergy in my community. I can definitely think of one in Sydney who has devoted his life to helping those who have lost their way, or their lives spiralled down of no fault of their own. Please be aware of this. I acknowledge and respect these spiritual and unbelievably amazing priests. But many are not. And it’s time for action and some level of accountability. Love you too. Xxx.
JK.: Vicki I completely agree & well said. As in every career & corner of life there are those who are truly passionate about what they do & about making a difference & creating a supportive & loving environment and as such there are those on the other spectrum, those who should not be where they are, those who abuse their “power” those who just don’t care. This issue is much bigger than one individual and as you say case by case decisions have no right to be utilised here. I remember your father’s funeral and all the horrendous behaviour of some of your family very clearly. It was all too surreal to forget. To see supposedly “religious” and close family behave the way they did... Completely disgraceful & inhumane. As for the church, as long as they keep communicating about suicide in that way our mental health crisis will not get better but worse. Everyone should be able to find support in their communities without judgement and shame. And for those not wanting you to be open about these issues, those trying to shame you.. They have a lot to learn. Maybe they are scared of the truth, happy to live in their little bubbles of ignorance... Who knows but these individuals are a big part of the problem and they need to be educated and re-wired. And for the church it has to start at the top. So yes it’s time for action and accountability. Right behind you.
(Here is where I lost it after more random comments).
Me: OK. I think it’s time I shared my personal story. Without naming anyone, but some of you can fill in the blanks. Yes, I’m “related” to a priest in Sydney. I don’t relate to most of my “relatives”, my close friends who’ve supported me through thick & thin, I do relate to. He’s an uncle, married to the sister of my father. He’s a confessing priest from what I know, God help us. And on that topic, I went to a priest for confession once and, not only wasn’t he listening, I had the petrahili (priest’s stole) on me so quick and a hand in my face to kiss with him practically pushing me out the door, with me saying “but, but....” I cannot tell you how I felt...(back to the uncle)... a lifetime of interference from the uncle, evil wife and family, that can be destructive. Outside interference usually is. Abuse of power. Because he was a priest, he felt he could dictate to the funeral business what he wanted for my father’s funeral. And the idiot funeral director complied. Not only did my family and I not have our requests and wishes followed, the 7 people in the funeral car behind our car (without our permission) was given to them for free. And we didn’t even know that this arrangement had been made. The business is playing dirty, such compassion & sensitivity there, an unregulated industry I believe... I am a private person...This public voice wasn’t what I wanted. But this fight for accountability and answers and solutions is bigger than me and my brother...There’s a Greek Orthodox priest as we know doing amazing work in Africa. Some may have attended functions to support the mission. There was a time in the past when the directive from the top was to reject this priest and his work. (The Archbishop had an issue with him, so everyone had to not talk to him). I was witnessing all this silently. I’m sorry, does this institution have a split personality or something? I refuse to be a puppet. I won’t conform because that’s too easy. Standing up for what I believe is right and just is difficult as you can all see. I always supported this wonderful man and so did my family, even when others rejected him because of a “decision” from the top.... (when the Archbishop decided to be friends again with this missionary priest, everyone was “allowed” now too.) If you and others in this community I don’t relate to or feel a part of can’t read what I’m saying and understand my experience and the fact that I finally have had a gutful of all this, it shows a mentality that cannot change. That’s my story, my experience, my life and my zero tolerance these days, in a nutshell.
Also not everyone at my father’s funeral were there to support us. D. (my Rwandan friend) definitely did. Rumours and gossip are such an unchristian thing. People making up their own answers perhaps to why this tragic event occurred, when the family are still asking “Why?” What was the conclusion from gossip believed and relayed to my brother initially by yet another priest? Something about upcoming happy news because I was engaged to the lovely man standing next to me at the funeral? It’s no one’s business in any case. But all I have to say is GROW UP. All those people gossiping and interfering in other people’s lives, why not use your time to better yourself, do something good for others, seek a higher purpose for goodness sake? Enough said.
G., (a cousin I don’t “relate” to): Being “grown up” is the danger Vicki.
Me: G. you need to elaborate so I understand your argument and line of thinking.
G.: Huh, I’m elusive and cryptic (LOL). FB not necessarily the appropriate forum.
Me: You think not? I think it’s time people exposed the truth or their true selves. If you can’t add to the argument, don’t add anything. I’m for the people, for all of us suffering out there due to serious and deliberate acts from Archdiocesan priests. Who are you for?
JK. (to A. who shared their blessed experiences, how blind): A. this is exactly the problem. It’s not about you and your feeling of being “blessed”, it’s about the church as a whole. Every individual as a community. It’s not about priests being good or bad, it’s about people doing the right thing by those who look up to them. In this instance those people are priests. Even those who feel “Blessed” need to have their eyes opened to reality. To understand that just because they are okay does not mean everyone else is and as a member of a religious community these “blessed” people should work to help and support those who are struggling. Of course there are wonderful priests, passionate ones who care about every individual and are genuine and thoughtful, this is not being argued at all. I don’t know you personally, only from your responses to Vicki’s posts, but given your posts on this topic you are providing yourself as a prime example of why we need better education in our church communities. I am however, not here to argue with you or point out your faults because I know it is just what you know and how you have been educated. For this reason I am only here to support Vicki and hopefully help her create a change so that individuals like yourself will better understand what this is actually all about and why individuals like Vicki need to be encouraged to express her views and not shamed or discouraged.
Me: Thank you JK. All I wanted to do was correct this stigma and ignorance. I don’t think it’s fair that I was attacked for my initial comments for speaking about mental illness and how awful that post makes people who have lost someone feel. If you could have been respectful of other viewpoints from the start this would not have escalated. I see there are very huge issues and emotional scars out there. Please deal with these away from FB with relevant authorities if need be. Everyone, show compassion. No more bullying and attacking. Sorry A. you made me extremely angry. Please respect my hurt and grief for the insensitivity I faced and keep facing from that community.
(I was justifiably angry. It got out of hand further with other very serious issues. Like reliving this shit again didn’t make me fragile and traumatised enough. All this brought out how fragile I was, reliving the apathy again because it’s personal – to me).
A. even private messaged me. I didn’t read it, I saw “geez” or something showing that she was frustrated. I’ll never understand how people can be like that. I finally said:
Me: Leave me alone. I feel really shaken up. I feel so sick I want to throw up. The bullying and insensitivity I faced from people who masquerade as Christians doesn't end. I wish you could’ve left me to correct the inaccuracy and not gone on the attack from the start. You haven't lost someone to suicide and you don't know the trauma we continually face because of people like you.
My final answer: A. I will just say this. I’m friends with priests and my actual hope was that I could start a discussion to change the view presented by the church. I tried to reason with you but no point… I have been attacked by people that I thought were my friends and others in the community for too long. I kept quiet and took it. I never had the opportunity to grieve and deal with the attacks in a more structured way. I have so much anger that even my family are worried about me. I’m tired of being blamed and treated like a villain. No one showed understanding, no one cared.
(This is the truth why I was distressed at that time. And why I finally took several weeks off work and went to grief and trauma counseling, seven years later. The manager from the library dared to send me a text where she wrote, “I can see you’re in a really dark place right now”. I just yelled back at the phone, “Oh fuck off”! That narcissist and those like her, are never to patronise me again. They must stop interfering and gossiping about my pain that they don’t know anything about, nor my life).
An objective comment I made on this topic escalated so much. The psychologist I went to said that surprisingly I got through the stages of grief (although it’s compounded with greater trauma and disenfranchised grief now), but I was stuck on the support network. What support network? The church? My work? Extended family? Narcissistic self-centred men, one after another? It wasn’t that I didn’t really have a support network (luckily for some amazing friends, who had my back, like in this example). It’s just that people in these areas of my life caused me serious pain and suffering. I’ve survived, but I can’t do this anymore.
In the comments, A. referred to a concept known as “oikonomia”. An article published in Neos Kosmos in 2014, explains this concept and how it’s applied in circumstances of death by suicide. I have made my argument in this post, as to why I do not agree with priests given individual “discretion” and decisive power in a “case by case” situation. I have said why, and our collective lived experiences, the surviving families, have proven why. This practice must stop.
Dean Kalimniou wrote, “Recent discussion of the Orthodox Church’s position on suicide tends to skirt an often overlooked aspect of its theology - that of oikonomia, or literally, ‘housekeeping’. This is a nuanced approach to aspects of human existence that takes into account the complexity and variables of situations, like the mental state of a person, in conjunction with other circumstances, when seeking to apply broad principles into practice…
The disadvantage of clergy being possessed of this discretionary responsibility is the capacity either to abuse it, or not exercise it as intended. Historically, owing to politics, social upheaval, isolation, poverty, ignorance and/or bigotry, many priests have not exercised that discretion in the manner required of them.”
It is a very insightful article to read. (Trigger warning, there are some confronting misconceptions that Kalimniou writes about, to provide a history and context in his analysis on this issue).
Kalimniou, D. (2014, 26 May). ‘Orthodoxy and suicide: An analysis of the way the Greek Orthodox Church views suicide.’ Neos Kosmos. Online: https://neoskosmos.com/en/2014/05/26/dialogue/opinion/orthodoxy-and-suicide-2014/
*The St. Athanasios chapel blog doesn’t exist anymore, but I had printed the article. I quoted accurately, what was written.
